New Mac Studio M2. SoftRaid 8.3. ThunderBay Flex8. All Volumes Disappeared Waking Up - Not A Good Start!

I promise this is not a snotty backhanded statement/question. Written support exchanges often make it hard to communicate nuance so please forgive me if this sounds wrong. 

Will SoftRaid 7.6 run on Sonoma? If I'm going to roll back the macOS, it makes me wonder if I should just use the license already bought and paid for. If 8.3 proves stable on whatever solves my problem, I'll happily buy it. I understand SoftRAID has nothing to do with disk ejection and believe you. But if I have to roll back to solve this, it makes me wonder if I might just be better off sticking with what I had before...if it works on Sonoma, that is. 

Nevermind, I think I understand fully now what you were referring to with a "second system." Just off the phone with AppleCare for the second time. Borderline (this is me trying to not become a judgmental person) useless experience.

I now see what you were referring to by "second system" is a dual boot. I talked to them about that on the phone. They were no help. And all I got was they want me to run First Aid on the external 16TB disks. Not going to happen.

Will keep this thread updated as I either work into the night or give up until tomorrow again, whichever happens first. 

I see where this is leading. Disregard all questions from previous messages. I see now that you were saying you weren't sure how it would work to install Sequoia on a second dual boot system. Reviewing the plan I see what the next steps are and I guess will try to do that with Sequoia on the second volume, but dinner last night was at 11 and I'm already 26 hours into this so guess I'll put this off until tomorrow now. Since I'm not ranting at SoftRAID/OWC, it's probably okay to come right out and say it: I find it absolutely ridiculous have to jump through these hoops on a brand new $7000 computer. And if I didn't have at least *some* experience now, I'd be far more upset. 8 years ago I would have just had a meltdown jumping through all these hoops. Maybe later on I'll setup the volume and prepare to re-install Sequoia tomorrow. Completely suspending expectation because as is this has not exactly gone smoothly. 

@guitarflex 

A note for you. As of Ventura, macOS controls what SoftRAID driver loads. You cannot use a newer or older driver for any macOS install now. So discard all thoughts of this being something you can "fix" with SoftRAID. Yes you could run 7.6.1 on Sonoma, but that does not change what driver is loading, if you ran 8.3, the same driver loads. Confusing, but that is how it works now. And why you no longer need to "reduce security" for SoftRAID, its so easy now.

If you do a second system install, you have a 100% clean system. If you are getting ejects, after setting sleep to never, etc, you know this is not a macOS issue either.

You can also try the other port on the back of the Flex 8, just in case it is dirt or something in the Thunderbolt port.

Thunderbolt is running at 80Ghz, that is very fast. And it was designed to instantly eject when the signal is interrupted. So the least thing can cause the disks to power down (eject). Its a design issue Apple and Intel never fixed over 10 years. they have made incremental progress (ejects happen less than they did, but still happen), but it happens, usually from a weak connection, or interference from an electrical source.

You as a user should not have to deal with all this on a "new" computer, but there it is. Apple support is not going to be of use, as they are reading from scripts. the very fact you are asked to use Disk First Aid to fix ejects proves that.

@guitarflex 

Let me add some more.

First, a second system keeps your main system 100% intact. It is just for testing, so you can prove these issues are not related to macOS.

If one of your systems is running Sonoma, you can use that to install Sonoma onto this (as a second system), if you want to test that.

My suggestions are so you do not have to "roll back" anything. Modern macOS enables you to have TWO or more systems on the same drive. Its a magic APFS thing, that since you an "old timer", may not realize is possible.

If you have problems ejecting a volume, that is either Time Machine, or if not a time Machine volume, a problem with Spotlight. Go to Spotlight/Privacy, exempt this volume and it should fix that issue. You can enable it later.

If I am missing any of your issues, sorry, your threads are so long, I am trying to comment on the most important.

Thanks for the replies. The threads are so long because this is a combination of depression and desperation. The depression is that no matter what I seem to do, no matter how much money I spend, and no matter how many hours I work, things like this seem to keep happening. It's not your fault. I'm just explaining the reality. And I couldn't even really afford to do any of this to begin with, but I made it work, and now this. It's a pretty depressing feeling to be blunt. And my experiences with AppleCare just made me feel all that more alone. So thanks for chiming in here and trying to help. Phone support is ancient history but if there was phone support things would be much less verbose.

I tried the other port on back of the ThunderBay earlier. No change so that would seem to rule out dirt or any connection issues. Plus the same port is fine with MBP. 

I don't have Sonoma on any other Macs. 

If I setup a second install on the Studio, how painless is it to delete one of those systems/volumes after sorting things out? Going to bed now. May have to forget about this altogether for a day or two but probably can't help myself from trying again in the light of day. Torn between throwing the gauntlet down with Apple, telling them they created this problem, they have to fix it, or else giving up. But I can't give up having spent about $14,000 in the past three weeks.

That's why this is so depressing and greatly compounds the emotion. I gave it everything to give it a shot. That's why this is so much bigger than "my volumes disconnected." 

@guitarflex 

Its trivial to add and later delete a second system. Just run DiskUtility, click on the unwanted volume and click -

All my computers have multiple systems, so I can boot from different versions of MacOS, if needed, or test for a bug, run a beta version, etc.

Its a great feature of APFS.

I'm going to pretty much end this thread now. It's between me and Apple now but I didn't sleep much last night and just finished the test. Didn't want to erase/write on the internal SSD so installed Sequoia to an external SSD to test. The test is conclusive but does nothing to improve my mood.

Before SoftRAID was even installed, 4 disk volumes contained on both 16TB Toshibas in the ThunderBay re-appeared upon waking.

Then when switching the startup disk back the the Macintosh HD, the next new issue (which was a bit concerning until re-connecting to the MBP which proved no data loss), only 4 of the 8 disks even appeared in the disk menu of SoftRaid, or in the Finder. (Then quit SoftRaid and looked in Disk Utility). So half my disks weren't even recognized. 

At this point I'll sort it out with Apple. May throw down the gauntlet which is not like me but this is simply not acceptable. 

For final testing, I'll try booting Sequoia from the MBP. That should at least help diagnose if I'm dealing with an issue in 15.2 or a literal hardware defect in the Studio. 

Thanks for the help but I don't think there's much more here to waste your time with now. I'm incredibly disappointed of course but not with SoftRAID.

If I discover the answer or get a satisfactory answer from Apple I will chime back on. For now, this is the sad ending of the thread and I'm pretty upset about it.

@guitarflex 

Note: If only 4 disks in the Flex 8 show up, that is a Flex 8 hardware issue, I cannot think oif any bug/issue in MacOS that can cause only half of the drives to show up. The lik,ely thing is the enclosure "hung" on one of the PCI buses. if you see this again, look at the drives, are any lights frozen on? are the 4 drives all on either top or bottom? (the Flex8 has two PCI buses)
I may not be able to offer much, but can help diagnose, unlike the Apple support people. The problem if this is a Studio problem, is getting Apple to admit it.

We had a faulty 2013 Mac Pro, which intermittently kernel panicked. We never got Apple to admit, fix, or replace it.

SoftRaid 8 trial just got deleted because the computer just got deleted. Won't matter for awhile until the rest gets sorted out. Here's what happened. 

Created bootable Sonoma installer. Tried installing to an external drive formatted APFS. Error code during installation. Thought it might be since the disk already had volumes created for Sequoia to test the Studio and another 2nd Sequoia installer to test the i9 MBP. So after first error, went back in on main HD and erased the external SSD, re-formatted in order to install Sonoma onto. Got another error, same code.

Tried to schedule Genius Bar appt but they wouldn't let me make an appt. for "macOS" issues so I called AppleCare yet again. Finally got a person who at least gave a crap and was sympathetic. After 45 minutes he transferred me to a senior advisor.

I was told that reason the installation wasn't working was because the entire system drive needed to be erased. Made sure I was logged out of everything and did it through Disk Utility in Recovery mode. After another 45 minutes on the line, at last, I had Sonoma on my Studio. 

Great. Nice ending right. 

Turned ThunderBay back on not really sure what to expect. 

Nope. Volumes on 16TB disks still mount upon waking and surely would disconnect improperly during sleep had they not been manually ejected first. ThunderBay went to sleep at first, then 20 or 30 seconds later I heard the disks spin up.

Time to look for an all night kitchen or whatever's in the refrigerator and try to get to bed before morning. It's between me and Apple from here. Everything points towards the Studio hardware now which sucks because I do not want to be carrying a Studio through the mall with a ThunderBay loaded with a bunch of data just to prove to them what's going on.

If things don't go well I don't know where to go from here. Someone either owes me a computer, a repair, or a full refund. And I have concerns about all the above (BH says all computer sales are final; meanwhile Apple is Apple). Meanwhile it's Jan 17th and the computer I bought for business won't do any good until there's a definitive solution. 

If this gets sorted out I'll happily upgrade to SoftRAID 8 and happily pay. If it doesn't, maybe I'll be stuck on the MBP, especially if I sell off the Studio at a loss for trauma-management. I'm one person. Apple is Apple. Maybe they'll step up. Maybe they won't. At least that closes the case on this thread here for now. But I have to be honest. It's pretty sad. Life doesn't owe us anything. Resentment is ruin. Every negation is a blessing in disguise. But this still isn't right and I still didn't deserve for it to go like this.

If they do something good I'll update. If not, SoftRAID 7.6 on the MBP running Mojave it'll remain! 

@guitarflex 

One more comment, just so you are aware:
When a computer goes to sleep, after a bit it goes into Hibernate mode. Every 45 mionutes or so, it wakes up to check tasks, etc. This has the side effect of spinning up all drives connected to computer. After a few minutes they spin down. This is a continuous cycle, there is no way to prevent it.

Sounds like one thing you need to do is set computer not to sleep, and when leaving, unmount, wait a minute, and disconnect the drives. This is perhaps the only workaround.
I will take our Studio next week and test with a Flex 8, just in case this is not a "one off" behaviour.

Packing everything up to go to the Genius Bar (yeah right but my last hope for proving defect...or connecting up to other Apple Silicon if there is an issue between Toshiba firmware and Apple silicon).

The weird keeps getting weirder. Just ejected all disks, put Studio to sleep. Then the drives spun up in the ThunderBay seconds after going to sleep. Then the drives spun down, scaring me into thinking a bunch of disk ejections had taken place. Awoke the Studio. The re-start process had already begun. Panic error upon restart. 

Less than an hour now to pack everything up in boxes and carry everything into a mall as one man all by myself. Stayed up til 4 am fresh installing Sonoma on MBP to take that too and prove everything to them. 

For amusement I can update. Clearly SoftRAID is off the hook. Sorry if at any point it sounded like I was being critical or harsh with you (hope not). This has been a highly emotional and upsetting several few days, following a bunch of other stuff that went sideways right before Christmas. 

Taking all this into a mall:

MBP

MacStudio

ThunderBay Flex 8 

Power Transformers

Sonoma Boot Drive (EXT)

USB-C Cable

2 (or 3) OWC Thunderbolt Cables

Shipping Boxes

Magic Keyboard/Mouse

Wish me luck. I cracked last night on AppleCare to an agent and began hyperventilating. 

@guitarflex 

Good luck.
BTW: Let the Genius bar know there is a Apple bug report filed on drives spinning up during hibernate mode.

Every 45 minutes like clockwork. It may be fixed in MacOS 16, but there is no fixed date for this bug fix.

good luck!

It may well still be Apple's fault, but replacing the Studio won't fix it. I replicated everything so perfectly it was like a court case. All we know right now is that SoftRAID is innocent. Took ThunderBay in the original double-box with air-cushioning on the drive over. Carried through a busy mall. 

They had an M1 Pro 16GB behind the Genius Bar that we connected up to. And.....

Identical issue as on my Studio. To their credit, they're not completely denying responsibility, as in - they are willing to replace the motherboard on the Studio for me.

But because it does the same thing on their M1 laptop, none of us (even myself) think motherboard replacement is the answer. Likely a waste of time and what would it give me on a 3-day old computer?

I got them to admit it could be an Apple issue that we just discovered for the first time. Or it could be Toshiba disks not working with Apple silicon. Or it could be high capacity HDDs in general. Too many missing links remain. I only have Toshibas for 16TB but Seagate EXOS for the 4TB disks originally ordered with the ThunderBay. Are the Seagates fine because they aren't Toshiba, or are the Seagates fine because they are 4TB instead of 16TB? 

I can't really afford to bankroll the tests I would need to eliminate the rest of the variables. I'd want to test Toshiba 4TB vs. Toshiba 16TB in the same enclosure to see if the disk ejects follow the brand or follows the capacity. I'd want to know if that 24TB Seagate EXOS on Mac Sales for $500 works in Flex 8 with Apple silicon...or not. Capacity or brand? 

Either way, math is already adding up to about $1800 of disks I won't ever be comfortable using now. Buying more disks seems likely while my bank account bleeds. Will call Mac Sales on Tuesday. Just hope for actual help in order to get to root cause and whatever solution becomes necessary so that other customers do not encounter it. And as I think about why they should actively want to help solve this, the motivation seems simple enough. I'm not eligible nor would remotely ever ask to be eligible for warranty or replacement from OWC since those 16TB disks were purchased after the original ThunderBay. I'm on my own there and I know it and that's fine. But if I had ordered a maxed out ThunderBay....if I recall correctly the disks in the enclosures were warranted for I think 5-years (would have to double-check that to confirm). Obviously if it's a specific  brand or a specific capacity that is incompatible with Apple silicon, it seems in everyone's favor to get to the bottom of it together. And I'll happily spend more money with OWC for it. 

Or if it's my specific enclosure....then I'll buy a new ThunderBay Flex. Though at this point I think we've pretty much ruled the enclosure out altogether. 

Theoretically it means my new Studio is fine. Theoretically it also means there is something wrong with all of Apple silicon. And either way I'm going to have to buy more stuff to try to dig myself out from under the issue. 

What's more likely, an Apple engineering cause, or disk firmware that has proven incompatible with Apple silicon? 

Just found this OWC Rocket Yard which sure makes it seem like this has been an issue since Apple silicon as I began to read the user comments and even found an official OWC reply. https://eshop.macsales.com/blog/47473-tech-tip-should-you-shut-down-your-mac-or-let-it-sleep/?srsltid=AfmBOorwGTrO0oQbRxCNe2d5IOKaM4dFTa5rqt8GqAGhxlquzAOEE1mo

Nov. 5, 2021 user Al Hatch says Apple Silicon will disconnect Thunderbolt drives when they go to sleep. (screen shot attached) 

Then user Bob says earlier in Aug. 2020 "I have two Thunderbay 3 units that drop their connection if the drives go to sleep. The OWC suggested solution was never to put the drives to sleep. Has this been fixed?"

OWC Jamie says:"Hi Bob. At this time, there is no other solution."

Not sure if Thunderbay 3 was a typo or if there possibly used to be an enclosure called that.