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Disappearing disks... this time in MacOS 12.3.1

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Henry-In-Florida
(@henry-in-florida)
Estimable Member Customer

@support, There's a similar issue to the one you sent out about MacOS 12.2 causing issues with this error, this time maybe it's SoftRAID or MacOS 12.3.1? I got the same errors WITH ALMOST ALL disks (four out six) individual warnings such as enclosed. Since you already know about this issue, do you need additional information?

Screen Shot 2022 04 14 at 15.28.35

 

Macbook Pro Retina 2019, internal 1TB storage, 32GB RAM, two external T3 enclosures (2.5TB online storage), 6x500GB, EVO SSD, RAID 4; MacOS Mojave.

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Topic starter Posted : 14/04/2022 2:37 pm
Henry-In-Florida
(@henry-in-florida)
Estimable Member Customer

FYI, Support request...

 

Macbook Pro Retina 2019, internal 1TB storage, 32GB RAM, two external T3 enclosures (2.5TB online storage), 6x500GB, EVO SSD, RAID 4; MacOS Mojave.

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Topic starter Posted : 14/04/2022 3:11 pm
(@softraid-support)
Member Admin

@henry-in-florida 

Actually it was indeed all disks. This is the Thunderbolt bus chip resetting, causing all disks to eject.

this is the issue Apple fixed 90% of in 10.12.2.

5 years later, they have not made any progress with this hardware issue. the surprising thing is it still happens with Thunderbolt 3 and 4.

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Posted : 14/04/2022 4:26 pm
Henry-In-Florida
(@henry-in-florida)
Estimable Member Customer
Posted by: @softraid-support

@henry-in-florida 

Actually it was indeed all disks. This is the Thunderbolt bus chip resetting, causing all disks to eject.

this is the issue Apple fixed 90% of in 10.12.2.

5 years later, they have not made any progress with this hardware issue. the surprising thing is it still happens with Thunderbolt 3 and 4.

Hmm. Guess I only saw a few of the notices. It did reset so the disk came back without further manual intervention (other than acknowledging the error).

Swell. remember some posts about it back when 12.2.1 came out. I assume you mean that Apple acknowledged the problem and attempted to fix it, so far without success.

Do they newly acknowledge a fix being worked on in 12.3?

There are many 'loose ends' like this - LRBNA (long reported but not addressed), still hanging out there. 12.3 picked up up only a couple of Monterey issues. I know of some others.

Macbook Pro Retina 2019, internal 1TB storage, 32GB RAM, two external T3 enclosures (2.5TB online storage), 6x500GB, EVO SSD, RAID 4; MacOS Mojave.

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Topic starter Posted : 14/04/2022 7:32 pm
(@softraid-support)
Member Admin

@henry-in-florida 

This goes way back to 10.12.2, not 12.2! (that's 10.12, 10.13, 10.14, 10.15, 11.x and 12.x)

This problem was much worst before 10.12.2. The problem is I think Apple engineering called this resolved when they found the main issue (the PCI bus was resetting), the bug was closed, but it only resolved MOST of the issues, so what is left is what you and I see.

If you connect multiple enclosures and a Thunderbolt monitor, for example, you will likely see this issue. the more devices connected to Thunderbolt, the more likely the ejects happen. But it can also happen with just one computer and one enclosure. It is just less likely.

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Posted : 15/04/2022 12:20 am
Henry-In-Florida
(@henry-in-florida)
Estimable Member Customer

@Support,

The NUMBER of devices on the bus hasn't changed, but the single monitor on the bus was revised revised to a 5K display from a 4K display and almost at the same time a clean (erase and install - built from metal) install of MacOS 12.3.1 was accomplished with the upgrade of SoftRAID 6.2.1. How will those affect the problem? 

I take it this is a hardware issue at least of the Apple side of things. So, how do I observe the status of the Thunderbolt hardware during a forced sleep test for the issue in this mode?

How can I test observe the root hardware error without SoftRAID? It happens now each time the machine is left overnight (System Preferences>Battery>PowerAdapter settings) are set to prevent the Mac from sleeping when the display is off.

The Battery operation mode is set to sleep but at that time there is no SoftRAID attached. Wonder if that has something to do with it?

Macbook Pro Retina 2019, internal 1TB storage, 32GB RAM, two external T3 enclosures (2.5TB online storage), 6x500GB, EVO SSD, RAID 4; MacOS Mojave.

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Topic starter Posted : 15/04/2022 5:55 am
Henry-In-Florida
(@henry-in-florida)
Estimable Member Customer

Looked for and found the log entries (SoftRAID.log segment). With my local knowledge, I can add the following:

  1. Shows 3 instances (dates/times) when ALL drives go off line, from log entries 08APR2022 - 14APR2022.
  2. Happens when machine is unattended, infrequently. Apparent that it's at least somewhat random and recent. Note that I previously described all the the history of MacOS installation and rebuild. 
  3. Power and settings on machine haven't changed before or after events. 
  4. Testing before/after the events produced no errors.

For reference, so we are talking about the same events on your logs, here are the system reports in Console>SoftRAID.log.

 

Macbook Pro Retina 2019, internal 1TB storage, 32GB RAM, two external T3 enclosures (2.5TB online storage), 6x500GB, EVO SSD, RAID 4; MacOS Mojave.

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Topic starter Posted : 15/04/2022 6:35 am
(@softraid-support)
Member Admin

@henry-in-florida 

I don't think there is a way to test the hardware. The change in Monitor is triggering this, apparently. Possibly the Studio Display? There were some LG Monitors that were recalled once, because they triggered disk ejects, so we do know this is possible.

If I had to guess, I would predict Apple does not actually do long term tests on laptops with multiple monitors and drives.

I remember some users would complain their Thunderbolt monitors would flash off momentarily, not realizing that was this same issue of the Thunderbolt bus resetting.

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Posted : 15/04/2022 10:00 am
Henry-In-Florida
(@henry-in-florida)
Estimable Member Customer
Posted by: @softraid-support

@henry-in-florida 

I remember some users would complain their Thunderbolt monitors would flash off momentarily, not realizing that was this same issue of the Thunderbolt bus resetting.

Keep in mind that the computer was unattended when it happened at least once, possibly each time, so how does that jibe with anything? 

Macbook Pro Retina 2019, internal 1TB storage, 32GB RAM, two external T3 enclosures (2.5TB online storage), 6x500GB, EVO SSD, RAID 4; MacOS Mojave.

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Topic starter Posted : 15/04/2022 10:38 am
Henry-In-Florida
(@henry-in-florida)
Estimable Member Customer
Posted by: @softraid-support

@henry-in-florida 

I don't think there is a way to test the hardware. The change in Monitor is triggering this, apparently. Possibly the Studio Display? There were some LG Monitors that were recalled once, because they triggered disk ejects, so we do know this is possible.

If I had to guess, I would predict Apple does not actually do long term tests on laptops with multiple monitors and drives.

I remember some users would complain their Thunderbolt monitors would flash off momentarily, not realizing that was this same issue of the Thunderbolt bus resetting.

It is the new Studio Display(MK0U3LL/A (A2525)), not the previous version LG. 

Macbook Pro Retina 2019, internal 1TB storage, 32GB RAM, two external T3 enclosures (2.5TB online storage), 6x500GB, EVO SSD, RAID 4; MacOS Mojave.

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Topic starter Posted : 15/04/2022 10:41 am
(@softraid-support)
Member Admin

@henry-in-florida 

I was just commenting on how some users would see the monitor flash on occasion, showing that while the Monitor may also momentarily eject, it is barely noticeable, unlike disks, which is bad news.

 

the fact this is happening with a new Studio Monitor means this issue has not been addressed yet by Apple. The cause, it appears, is one of the thunderbolt chips resets/crashes. this is not a problem for monitors, but Thunderbolt is designed to be "hot swappable", so disks power off instantly. that is why you get the disk eject messages.

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Posted : 15/04/2022 4:16 pm
Henry-In-Florida
(@henry-in-florida)
Estimable Member Customer
Posted by: @softraid-support

the fact this is happening with a new Studio Monitor means this issue has not been addressed yet by Apple. The cause, it appears, is one of the thunderbolt chips resets/crashes. this is not a problem for monitors, but Thunderbolt is designed to be "hot swappable", so disks power off instantly. that is why you get the disk eject messages.

@support

So far today, it has not failed,0 despite my taking the machine on and off battery power, disconnecting MBP from its normal Thunderbolt ports and reconnecting from a portable configuration several times. The devices came on line when the connection was plugged in and remained on line. 

I have two monitors connected to Thunderbolt on the machine, one on each of two Thunderbolt ports. The 5K new monitor is all by itself on one thunderbolt port, while the 4K monitor is attached to the port that loops through multiple devices (a hub, two OWC drive enclosures using all SoftRAID components and the monitor), as it has for a long while - stable as a rock until recently with MacOS 12.3.1, no trouble. 

I won't get into a fingerpointing exercise except to say that I filled in all the blanks for you on how its connected and the devices and what error flags are being raised. If you say on set of chips is failing then that's obviously hardware and it's under warranty. But I know that Apple is going to make me go through a bunch of hoops to prove and I cannot do soexcept to point at your drivers. So it won't get fixed. I'll keep reporting it to you until you come up with a way to show some other provable Apple hardware issue.

Macbook Pro Retina 2019, internal 1TB storage, 32GB RAM, two external T3 enclosures (2.5TB online storage), 6x500GB, EVO SSD, RAID 4; MacOS Mojave.

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Topic starter Posted : 15/04/2022 9:32 pm
(@softraid-support)
Member Admin

@henry-in-florida 

the problem with this issue is it is a flaw in Thunderbolt. I think there is either interference, or perhaps a heat issue, where one of the Thunderbolt chips in the connectors crashes. Every connection point has a Thunderbolt computer chip on each end, which is why it is fast, but the connection is very susceptible to interference.

 

One would think after 7+ years of this happening on Thunderbolt buses, either Intel or Apple would figure out this is affecting the pro market (people with lots of drives/monitors, devices, etc.) and address it.

 

Or at least fix it in thunderbolt 3? Or 4?

 

It shows how the little these companies consider what happens when users actually use their computers with lots of devices.

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Posted : 15/04/2022 10:07 pm
Henry-In-Florida
(@henry-in-florida)
Estimable Member Customer
Posted by: @softraid-support

@henry-in-florida 

the problem with this issue is it is a flaw in Thunderbolt. I think there is either interference, or perhaps a heat issue, where one of the Thunderbolt chips in the connectors crashes. Every connection point has a Thunderbolt computer chip on each end, which is why it is fast, but the connection is very susceptible to interference.

One would think after 7+ years of this happening on Thunderbolt buses, either Intel or Apple would figure out this is affecting the pro market (people with lots of drives/monitors, devices, etc.) and address it.

Or at least fix it in thunderbolt 3? Or 4?

 It shows how the little these companies consider what happens when users actually use their computers with lots of devices.

@softraid,

While we agree it is a problem and a likely hardware issue, as you also said, it's intermittent for me and heat is making a very good guess as to the cause. To add to that with some diagnostics and local info IF it is heat related or communication related (device, possibly cable), my problem has 'settled down' since last reports. 

I can monitor heat of every sensor independently with an app called Temperature Gauge (TG Pro app). The left and right Thunderbolt sensors run 56 and 67°C respectively. 67°C is about the the overall average temp of the machine with the clamshell closed 24x7, the normal condition of the MBP when on the desk and connected to the Thunderbolt devices. Why the left side of the entire machine runs cooler than the right side is a design mystery, however I tried to cheat the system in TG Pro and make the right side fan work at high speed with mixed results when the team won the right exceeds 65°. Not very effective (throttling issue with Intel machines?). 

Made the change to closed clamshell for a power savings when I got the new monitor hooked up. It works well, except I have no use of TouchID. BTW, the new keyboard with TouchID built-in Apple sells at a high price, only works with Apple Silicon equipped MBP (so not backwards compatible). Thanks, Apple! I can use it nicely on their 2020 MacMini M1, so it's compatible with that. Sweet keyboard, unfortunately not usable where needed most- on Intel MBP. I remember my logon though it's less than convenient. Just tryin' to get through until M1 or M2  is available for MBP. I don't like 1ˢᵗ GEN Mac hardware. Since we're ranting... 

The logs are clean since 14 APR (only two days, I know, but just sayin') events. I have not had any failure. No further reports there, nor have there been diagnostic reports of Thunderbolt 'glitching' or 'resets' you describe. Is that something that would be reported/logged without SoftRAID? Seems like any SSD would react in the same way, no? However, the other SSD's attached do not exhibit this issue. Why?

Macbook Pro Retina 2019, internal 1TB storage, 32GB RAM, two external T3 enclosures (2.5TB online storage), 6x500GB, EVO SSD, RAID 4; MacOS Mojave.

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Topic starter Posted : 16/04/2022 7:36 am
Henry-In-Florida
(@henry-in-florida)
Estimable Member Customer

FYI, pictures of Thunderbolt Buss 0, Buss 1 settings (About this Mac>System Report>Thunderbolt/USB 4). One each of the bus trees. I had to use two connections to make both monitors work at full Rez. It took some fiddling by AppleCare to make the Studio Display work at all in my configuration, but it did. The last tweak was me, to get full resolution on each meant that I had to split the busses' used, one for each of the monitors. Not sure of the time line, but maybe that's what healed my failures, based on your reports. have you been able to replicated this scenario? Apple won't comment. Their advisor did relate they have an internal chart for compatibility of Studio Monitor on each model. My MBP (by SN) is supposed to be 100% compatible with Studio Monitor 5K and a 4K UHD generic monitor via Thunderbolt. They just don't say under what connection conditions that is, so it took some foolin' around to get it. Not Plug 'n' Play, but close.

Screen Shot 2022 04 16 at 14.22.19
Screen Shot 2022 04 16 at 14.23.22

 

Macbook Pro Retina 2019, internal 1TB storage, 32GB RAM, two external T3 enclosures (2.5TB online storage), 6x500GB, EVO SSD, RAID 4; MacOS Mojave.

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Topic starter Posted : 16/04/2022 1:40 pm
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